Piotr Pilch: How did your opposition activities begin?
Adam Lozinski: W Przemyślu mieszkam od 1984 roku, a moja działalność w Solidarności zaczęła się wcześniej, w Gliwicach. Właściwie tam były początki, byłem młodym nauczycielem, bo drugi rok pracy, kiedy właśnie powstał związek „Solidarność”. Akurat pewne względy sprawiły, że jako młody nauczyciel, znalazłem się w jego władzach. Gliwice to jest duże miasto, 1000 członków było w Komisji Zakładowej Nauczycieli, ja się znalazłem w prezydium naszej Komisji Zakładowej. Byłem odpowiedzialny za kontakty z Sekcją Regionalną w Katowicach. Wspominam różne rzeczy, pamiętam, pogrzeb Prymasa Wyszyńskiego; akurat wtedy odbyła się w Warszawie konferencja nauczycieli historii Solidarności. Tam nie było dużo ludzi, ze 40 osób. Dyskutowaliśmy o potrzebie zmian w nauczaniu historii. Zachowałem nawet delegacje, mam potwierdzenie, że tam byłem, ale nawet jej nie zrealizowałem. Mam je na pamiątkę, mogę pokazać. Takie są wspomnienia.
PP: Sure, such things are very valuable.
AL: Także do Przemyśla przybyłem w ’84 roku. Przede wszystkim ze względów rodzinnych, bo syn bardzo chorował na Śląsku na drogi oddechowe. W 1984 roku przybyłem do Przemyśla, nie znając nikogo. I to nie były łatwe czasy dla obcych, bo na nich patrzono podejrzliwie. Pamiętam taką sytuację, chociaż inni zapomnieli o tym. Wprowadziliśmy się w lipcu, a we wrześniu ogłoszono w KIK-u (Klub Inteligencji Katolickiej), że potrzebują nauczycieli do pomocy, do nauczania. Więc się zgłosiłem. I wtedy mój późniejszy przyjaciel zapytał, kto mi polecił to stanowisko. Odpowiedziałem, że nikt, bo dopiero przyjechałem do miasta. Na to usłyszałem, że „tutaj agentów nie potrzebujemy”. To było bardzo nieprzyjemne. Kolejnym razem dowiedziałem się, że ma być spotkanie nauczycieli i Msza Św. w kościele św. Trójcy. Msza była dla wszystkich o godzinie 15, a potem był opłatek dla nauczycieli, poszedłem tam i poznałem nauczycieli z Solidarności. W Przemyślu prężnie działało duszpasterstwo nauczycieli przy kościele św. Trójcy, który nazywano „Okopami Św. Trójcy” Tam poznałem m.in. Ryszarda Buksę. Wcześniej powstała inicjatywa w Warszawie, na Solcu. Co miesiąc odbywały się spotkania, od 1985 roku jeździłem na nie dość często. Stamtąd przywoziłem ulotki. Mieszkałem na Rogozińskiego, blisko stacji Zasanie. Bałem się, nie raz, do domu tę paczkę z ulotkami zanosić, więc myślałem „rzucę w krzaki”. Dużego wsparcia dla duszpasterstwa nauczycieli udzielał ksiądz Stanisław Zarych. I to trwało do 89. roku, gdy nastała „normalność”. Potem przestałem jeździć, ale poznałem w tym czasie wiele osób. Do tej pory znam Jana Żaryna, profesora z IPN. Wtedy to on jako młody człowiek organizował takie spotkania duszpasterskie. Tak to się zaczęło.
W 1989 roku uczyłem w Szkole Podstawowej nr 13. Tam założyłem Koło Solidarności, jedno z pierwszych w Przemyślu, a pierwsze pośród szkół podstawowych. Potem zajmowałem się tworzeniem Komisji Zakładowej Solidarności, która obejmowała cały powiat. Jeździłem do Orłów czy Krasiczyna. W tamtych czasach rzadko nauczyciele mieli samochód, ja akurat miałem. Wcześniej byłem w Stanach, więc mogłem sobie pozwolić, żeby kupić, a tak, to nie dałoby się z pensji nauczycielskiej. „Sekretariat” naszej Komisji mieścił się w domu Państwa K. i R. Żurawskich. Pamiętam 15 czerwca ‘89, imieniny Jolanty, naszej znajomej. I w ten dzień zostałem wybrany na Przewodniczącego Komisji Zakładowej, zostałem szefem organizacji nauczycieli. Potem, w 1990 roku, odbył się drugi Zjazd Solidarności Regionalnej, tam zostałem wybrany w skład Zarządu Regionu, byłem nawet sekretarzem, ale bardzo krótko. Taka działalność typowo związkowa mnie nie interesowała za bardzo. Byłem w Solidarności po to, by obalić i tworzyć nowy system, a nie by działać jako związek zawodowy. Poszedłem do pracy w instytucjach, niektórzy mieli mi to za złe, bo przestałem pełnić funkcję sekretarza i zostałem w czerwcu 1990 roku wicekuratorem i przez cztery lata pełniłem bardzo ważną funkcję administracji województwa przemyskiego. Od 1 kwietnia kuratorem był wtedy Piotr Idzikowski. W pewnym momencie była narada Regionalnej Sekcji NSSZ, byli ludzie z Przeworska, Jarosławia, z Lubaczowa. Wybieraliśmy wówczas kuratora. Naszym pierwszym wskazaniem był Wiesław Beck z Lubaczowa. I taka zapadła decyzja, żeby poprzedni kurator odszedł, a minister powołał w. Becka. Następnego dnia w sobotę Wiesiek jednak zadzwonił, że z Lubaczowa jest za daleko, by dojeżdżać codziennie do Przemyśla. Solidarność wtedy była na Grodzkiej, a ja byłem w pracy. Dzwoniłem do Jarosławia, Lubaczowa i telefonicznie poinformowałem, że W. Beck nie chce być kuratorem. W trakcie tych rozmów ustaliliśmy, że Piotr Idzikowski zostanie naszym kandydatem. I to Piotra zgłosiliśmy do ministra. To były trudne momenty, ale sama sprawa była budująca. To nie było tak, że to władza proponuje, a Ministerstwo zatwierdza. My proponowaliśmy tę osobę, która wydawała nam się najlepsza na to stanowisko. I to z Ministerstwa dzwoniono do mnie indywidualnie, bo okazało się, że w Warszawie funkcję dyrektora gabinetu ministra, pełniła osoba, którą znałem z duszpasterstwa, i pytał, czy to jest na pewno właściwy kandydat. I w ten sposób powołano Piotra Idzikowskiego na kuratora oświaty. To były trudne czasy w kuratorium. Były problemy, by odwoływać poprzednich dyrektorów, a my to przeżywaliśmy. Istna wojna była.
PP: Here the old system clashed with the new system. The old one still had its influence.
A£: Especially since at the beginning there was still no new law on the education system. It entered in September 1991, but we used it. The superintendent himself could make regulations for appointing directors. Now it's complicated that the superintendent doesn't have much power, he's an executor, more important is the Commission, the Teachers Union, parents. We made it so that to the Commission three people were put forward by the superintendent, and three by the school. When there was a tie, the superintendent himself decided who would be the school director. That was a bit of a trick we did. This was in effect until 1991. Then I was dismissed when the governments changed and the SLD came in. From 1994 I worked in local administration, I was head of the Department of Education at the City Hall. It was only then that the department was established in the city, before that the city was not in charge of schools, only kindergartens (there was one person in charge of kindergartens in the Department of Culture). In 1996, all schools were taken over by local governments. In Przemyśl, two years earlier, the city was the governing body.
PP: And what did it look like then? Was it a good reform? Was it desired by the public?
AL: Rather, yes, previously it was handled by the state, the superintendent was the leading authority: he was in charge of management, finances, appointing principals, responsible for everything in the school. On the other hand, there was also a pedagogical supervisory body. And the superintendent performed these two functions simultaneously. When local governments took over the running of institutions and became the leading authorities, the superintendent was in charge of pedagogical supervision, doing inspections, visitations, checking the qualifications of candidates, the state of student knowledge. I think this was better, until now no one questions it. Yes, there was a problem as usual with money. Who was supposed to pay for it? It was invented that from the state budget, cities (local governments) would receive subsidies per pupil. This was calculated in detail. However, the money was less and less, at the beginning this subvention was calculated in such a way that it was quietly enough to run schools. Now, for a long time, the subvention is not enough and the city has to contribute from its budget. I don't know how it is today, but once in Przemyśl, in the 1990s, the city added little from the budget, while in Warsaw, on the other hand, the authorities added almost 100% to the subvention. In our country at the beginning of the 21st century, no more than 3 percent was added. Let's note what disparities these were. The city could play a good role and either they gave money and education was a priority, or not. Now the city of Przemyśl is adding 25 percent, and Warsaw has reduced because it is only adding 70 percent.
As for my activity in the Przemyśl Cultural Society, I was a member at the end of the 1980s, and I only found out about its reactivation later. I was not invited to the reactivation meeting. I wasn't the only one, by the way. I learned that the election meeting was held, being at Calvary, on another occasion. I was not the only one surprised that some comrades were forgotten. I don't say this with resentment, but with mild surprise. When I received the invitation to the Society's meeting and Chairman Marek Kuchcinski was there, I thought it was his function from the old days.
What else can I boast about? I received a medal from the Metropolitan of Przemysl in recognition of my service to the Church of Przemysl.
PP: Such things are also collected as much as possible.
AL: I have never belonged to any party, i.e. since 1990 yes, but before that no. When I came to Przemysl, I could not work in a high school. One principal himself invited me for an interview, he knew that I worked at "thirteen" and wanted to hire me, but the party. I didn't belong to it, so he couldn't. He suggested that I at least enroll in the ZNP (Union of Polish Teachers), but I refused. That was in 1986.
PP: This hindered professional development.
AL: Tak, ale ja się nie przejmowałem. W drugiej szkole również dyrektor wprost powiedział, że „żądają” od nich, by przyjmowali tych, którzy należą do partii. To było z kolei w 1988 roku. W Gliwicach także pracowałem w szkole podstawowej, ale miałem również godziny w liceum. Podejrzewam, że gdybym został tam dłużej, otrzymałbym pełny etat. W dużym mieście nie kładziono takiego nacisku na zapisanie się do partii. Gdy przyjechałem do Przemyśla, w pierwszym roku pobytu, nie poszedłem na pochód 1 maja. Zostałem ukarany, nie zapłacono mi za godziny tego dnia, 7 godzin potrącono mi z pensji. W Gliwicach nigdy nie chodziliśmy na pochody, nikt tego nie żądał. Tutaj w Przemyślu bardziej chciano się pokazać. To od władz lokalnych zależało, jak duży kładziono nacisk. Z osobami z Gliwic do tej pory mam kontakt.
I was also awarded the Cross of Freedom and Solidarity. You could receive it if you were active for a minimum of one year in the opposition. I had the difficulty that I had no record by the SB, so I had to get witnesses who confirmed my activities. As a result, I will receive such a Cross in September.
PP: Based on these statements is the Cross awarded? Where will the ceremony be held?
AL: Most likely in Rzeszow. The decision has already been made by the President of Poland.
(By order of the President of the Republic of Poland on February 1, 2022. Adam Lozinski was awarded the Cross of Freedom and Solidarity. The decoration ceremony took place on September 23 at the IPN Branch in Rzeszow)
More than once I was surprised that teachers knew and had materials available about Katyn, for example, but did not use them. Regarding Msgr. Ignatius Tokarczuk, We had a good relationship, first in the 1980s I participated with teachers from the teachers' pastoral ministry in meetings to celebrate holidays or his birthday. Many times I went to him for private talks. They were always very fruitful, he convinced us that there would be freedom, that Free Poland would come. We didn't believe it, but he was right. Archbishop Tokarczuk had a nephew who was an MP. Through this nephew we got to know each other better. I was the one who gave the archbishop the information that his sister had died, I even offered a ride to the funeral, but the archbishop refused due to his health.
PP: I wanted to ask you about the time when you became an MP in 1997 and co-founded the commission for the reform of the new administrative division.
AL: This was a difficult issue for me. There was a dispute as to how far the government authority should reach, and how far the local government authority should reach. I have the impression that this problem has not been fully resolved to this day. The question was whether there should be local government or government administration at the provincial level. Secondly, the Accord of the Center since 1990 was my party, which I joined and I am loyal to it. Although there was a time when the PC brought in perhaps 12 deputies and a few senators to the Sejm. Out of 460, that was a drop.
PP: But you co-founded the government at the time, right?
AL: Yes, we had a deputy minister for roads: Krzysztof Tchórzewski. Also Antoni Tokarczuk was a minister, Jan Szyszko from our grouping was Minister of Forestry. These were also dilemmas. Even before the elections, our organization was involved in the issue of administration and division. The commission headed by K. Tchórzewski proposed 32 provinces. That was the idea. There are documents about this in the archives in Przemyśl. The Przemyśl province was supposed to be larger and reach all the way to Zamosc and the Bieszczady Mountains. That fell through. Meanwhile, the government proposed 12 provinces. Our province was to be Eastern Lesser Poland.
PP: Would it be acreage-wise similar to the current size of the province?
AL: Yes, similarly. There were disputes over Debica, Gorlice. As a result of the talks (it took a long time) 16 provinces came out. The question remained as to what powers the marshal should have. So far this has been clashing, and this is changing. Not the provincial governor, but the marshal is the host of the province. The provincial governor is the government's representative on the ground, and has a controlling and supporting role. Then there is the county. This is a local government administration, although it contains some government organizations, such as sanitation. This is such a different division. And the third level: local government-municipality. There was also a dispute over Przemyśl and more. Przemyśl was supposed to be a normal city and there was supposed to be a Przemyśl district. I remember that we submitted an amendment that all cities previously provinces became cities with county rights. There were dual powers, that is, municipal and county, in one body. Is this a good thing? At the time we thought that because of this there would be more money, one administration. It used to be argued whose road it was, but now all roads in the city are cities. Investments are also cities, the government has no right to invest anything in the city. A good example is the eastern bypass. It was the city that applied for the bypass and did it on its own, although the government, as a result of the support of MPs, subsidized this investment. With the western bypass, there is a dispute. If it is outside the city, the state bears the cost, but if in the city, the city bears the cost. Also the maintenance of the road, lighting, heating. Is this better?
Tak samo miasto grodzkie. To mam na swoim koncie. Tak samo w sprawie gimnazjum. Pamiętam, według mojego rozeznania, jak dyskutowaliśmy w latach 90. Byliśmy przekonani, że szkoła podstawowa jest za długa. Pamiętam, jak uczyłem jeszcze, był taki chłopak, miał trudności w nauce, repetował. Po szóstej klasie , poszedł do innej szkoły i ukończył „podstawówkę” wcześniej, niż jego rówieśnicy. Szkoła podstawowa była za długa, nie było podziału na specjalizacje, żeby przygotowywać do konkretnego kierunku, wszystko jednakowe. Chcieliśmy to zmienić, żeby szkoła była krótsza, żeby była jakaś specjalizacja. To się nie udało do końca, bo w gimnazjach, te podziały na specjalizacje też były nierówne. Ale nasze miasto, jako miasto na prawach powiatu też przyjęło te szkoły. W Jarosławiu była inna sytuacja, tam miasto ma tylko przedszkola i szkoły podstawowe, ponadgimnazjalnymi zajmuje się powiat. A w Przemyślu wszystko jest zarządzane przez prezydenta. I to się zmieniło w wyniku naszej reformy. Teraz odwrócono znowu. Czy to dobrze? Ja nie wiem, na tym już się nie znam.
PP: It's hard for me to judge, since I studied in middle school, I would have to go back to school to compare the two. However, in the new system, this childhood age is extended, and in high school it is already time to grow up.
A£: I think elementary school should be shorter, and middle school and high school should be combined on the model of the pre-war small high school, for example.
PP: Maybe a 6 + 6 or 7 + 5 model would work. I agree that it could develop in that direction.
AL: This is the issue of these double reforms. Especially since I have been involved with education all my life, first as a teacher, then in government administration, then as a superintendent, in addition, I was involved in education as an MP. For nine years I worked at the Podkarpackie Teacher Education Center. I was not a pedagogical employee, but I organized courses and trainings. We received grants and used them for various purposes, organized courses and even distributed food. I was in charge of organizing improvement. I was asked if I was good at it, because it was not a very responsible organizational function. But I survived.
PP: I would like to ask you about the establishment of the National Eastern European University. I know that you participated in it and were in the authorities of the university.
AL: I was chairman of the Convention. There were two authorities: Rector and Senate and the Convention. That's what it was called. The Convention was made up of employees from outside the school. The chairman of the Convention and the Rector were two positions high in the administration. I was chairman of the Convention, and before that I was president of the Przemyśl Academy Society. This Society was founded back in the 1990s, in the 93rd or 94th. The late Tadeusz Sawicki president of the city, who was the first president of the Society, was still alive. Momentarily Marek Kuchcinski was also the chairman, and then I became chairman when I was already an MP. At that time I had the opportunities to create and organize this school. It's hard for me to say, but Jaroslaw had better arrangements at the Ministry. They were two years ahead of us. Our school was established in 2001, and theirs in 1999. There was a crush at the Ministry, the Minister came and wondered why the two establishments were so close to each other. He proposed to create a joint Przemyśl-Jaroslavl school. But neither the authorities of Przemyśl nor Yaroslavl wanted to agree on this. When we had more influence in the AWS, we finally succeeded in creating our school. The concept was for the University of Rzeszow to merge with several smaller schools. And the goal was to create a main academy in Rzeszow and smaller vocational schools in smaller cities: Przemyśl, Krosno, Tarnobrzeg. Then it turned out that they were being created in smaller towns, such as Przeworsk. This school of ours was supposed to be humanistic, having contacts with the East , to make agreements with Lviv and Ukraine. Did it succeed later? It turned out that the humanities are at a good level. For example, Jerzy Bartminski, who is one of the best Polish scholars in Poland and the brother of Father Stanislaw Bartminski, parish priest in Krasiczyn and local government activist Jan, taught here. The humanities haven't quite worked out here, I don't think there is even a Polish philology anymore. The focus is on science and technical majors. Humanities are going away. Nowhere, not even in Lublin, has a university been established that pursues eastern politics.
PP: With what is happening abroad, there is potential for such a university. The idea was already there, and so many years later it is still relevant.
AL: Maybe that will still happen.
PP: At the Carpathian Europe forum, there was recently mentioned the idea of establishing a cadre training university in Ukraine. But as far as I know, it is a very difficult thing to do.
AL: I think too many of these universities are being created. Maybe if things were different... I remember when I was a student in the 1970s, a few percent of young people were in college. It was 3, 4, 5 percent, that much. And now? It's like this, it will never be like this in any community, that the majority will have the potential to study. Yes, they can study, but what level will it be and what will be the results. And also, are there needs? We not only need educated people, but also such for other professions. And this is also the difference, parents have ambitions, send to schools, support with tutoring. And what is the point? Is that the point? Sometimes I read various books, for example, Stanislaw Zarych. He was from a small village and a school was sent to him. That was the thing, that in a natural way these young boys or girls... mostly boys, however, were discovered. They themselves were intelligent, supported financially and so on.
PP: Last question. I wanted to ask about the city council. You were a councilman for 12 years, including the chairman of the City Council. How do you recall it? How has the city changed during this time, because in three terms you can evaluate it.
AL: I did not feel these changes. As for the roads, it is positive that it was possible to build the eastern bypass. This is some positive aspect, the bridge. I myself rarely drive on it, I mostly go through the city. Public transportation has changed. These roads often break down, Bielska Street was recently repaired and such holes are already there. As for education, teachers by law are supposed to reach a certain level of salary. As there was not so much money, this should have been equalized. This has been in effect since 2009 , so it's been a dozen years. The snag was that little money was added to the budget in the city and teachers did not reach this level, only in January they were paid this equalization. I remember one year compensation was given for more than 3 million. In my opinion, it should be that this money in that previous year could have been given for extra classes, for function and incentive allowances. And this money was then given equally. Well, and it turned out that teachers were given equally. Some treated it as a fourteenner. There was such an allowance that they even got PLN 1,000 each. I more than once spoke about the fact that they pay teachers for free, without providing work. This is a failure, I could not convince the Council. Now I do not know how it is, but this system has been preserved. As for management, there is no team in our country that wants to sit in one circle and do something. This is the biggest shortcoming. I think in local governments in general. Everyone wants to do something, some don't. I was in such a good situation that I worked part-time and could devote myself to the Council. When someone works, for example, in Rzeszow, he doesn't have time to devote to the Council. These are such dilemmas, now a term of 5 years. I myself voluntarily gave up another start. In my opinion, local government is needed but really the selection of candidates for councilors. I know that Law and Justice organized preparations. The law is not so easy. The law on the education system in 1991 had a dozen pages, now they are hundreds. This is how they are composed. Is this good or bad? I know that before the war it was also bad. And in Przemyśl it is so that the Council does not pass the discharge, but the Regional Audit Office gives a positive opinion. And that's it, there are no consequences. The Council could initiate the removal of the president, but is that good or bad? This I do not know. But the governmental and administrative body I generally evaluate positively. How positively? We decide for ourselves, the Council can do a lot. It's good that I don't have to worry about it anymore.
PP: The Lord has already done his part.
A£: Yes I did as much as I could. But I have no reproaches. There was such an idea in the city to socialize kindergartens, that is, to give them to organizations to run them, but there was a great rebellion. As a result, maybe it would be a positive thing, because we have 14 public kindergartens, and there are more than 20 non-public ones. There are so many of these institutions, maybe they perform their function better, they are cheaper for the city because the city pays 50% subsidies. Then maybe they are better?
Pamiętam, że pojechaliśmy kiedyś do Nowego Sącza, ponieważ tam również była taka inicjatywa. Jedna z redaktorek Życia Przemyskiego napisała o mnie artykuł pod tytułem „Jestem jaki jestem”. Właściwie to był wywiad ze mną. Nawiązywał on do tej reformy. Były protesty, ale prezydent T. Sawicki, tak wspominają inni pracownicy Wydziału, wierzył w tę inicjatywę i miał zaufanie do nas. Powiedział mi, że ja jestem „uczciwy do piwnicy”. Nie wiem, co to znaczyło. Jeszcze raz powiem: samorządy powinny być, władza powinna być bliżej ludzi, ale ja tej władzy teraz nie bardzo czuję. Mamy w Przemyślu Rady Osiedlowe, coś w rodzaju najniższej władzy w samorządzie. W naszym mieście, tu gdzie mieszkamy jest to Osiedle Warneńczyka. Ono sięga od ul. Wołodyjowskiego do Salezjanów. A po drugiej stronie Węgierskiej i Grunwaldzkiej jest Osiedle Kmiecie, które jest od Placu Konstytucji aż do Ostrowskiej. Pas ziemi między Sanem a Grunwaldzką. To powinno być skupisko ludzi, którzy mają wspólne interesy. Jakie są wspólne interesy człowieka z Placu Konstytucji i człowieka z Ostrowskiej? Zawsze podkreślałem, że trzeba to zmienić. Mamy 21 osiedli i one moim zdaniem powinny mieć większe uprawnienia, dysponować swoim budżetem. To jest niższa administracja, która również zabiera głos na sesji. I to nie jest najlepiej rozwiązane.
PP: I agree. They have direct contact with the people, they know best what is happening in their area, and their voice is not heard. And they are invited to a session, they will say something, and their opinion is not binding, no one counts with it.
PP: You as a historian surely know this best.
AL: What about Ukraine? Well, exactly. I believe it's going all the way towards easing our relations. I hope so. So far it has been uninteresting there. In Ukraine, they are looking for their ideology, they are looking for what they have in common, they are reading their history, just like other countries. Ukraine is a young country. As I remember the early 1990s, when we had contacts with Lviv and beyond. In Lviv, the image of the Mother of God and the flag hung in schools. This was the basis of their ideas. And now an example of a cruel, painful case in Lviv. On the building of School No. 10 there is a bust of Roman Shuchevych, one of those responsible for accepting the Volhynian Massacre. School No. 10 is one of two so-called Polish schools, near the Maria Magdalena Church. I once asked the headmistress what the issue was. I heard that this is what the authorities decided, and this is how it must be in a Polish school as well.
PP: In Ukraine they have them as heroes. But even now, during the war, heroes are being created.
A£: They make their history in a painful way.
Interviewed by Piotr Pilch
